Dig this shit:

"Is it permissible to look at the body parts — excluding the two private areas — that a non-Muslim woman used to show? And in this regard is there a difference between seeing in the flesh or in movies?" a reader asked Khamenei.

"There is no objection to unintentional looking at the non-Muslim woman's body regarding the amount they are used to uncover," Khamenei said. He added: "Of course, It is even haram (forbidden) to intentionally look at that in case it is sexually exciting, is associated with fear of falling victim to that which is haram or leads to vile consequences."

Khamenei also went on to rule against providing "children with musical instruments to be used in songs," and "singing/humming to oneself."

More at this link:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...321137,00.html

I must say I'm impressed by HK's persistence after taking so many "hits"- unfortunately I have to burst his bubble further by informing him that, as he himself has said, he is not "technically" a Muslim, at all: participation in the pilgrimage to Mecca (which he says he is not allowed to do) is required as one of the "five pillars" of Islam, in addition to the acceptance of Muhhamad as God's truest and last prophet; tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anything in the Koran about another "messiah" showing up 1800 years after Muhhamad. HK is in the position of a man standing outside the gates of an exclusive country club, complaining because they won't let him in because he says he is a member. He defends the club and its founder vehemently, not seeming to realize that the club's original set of rules forbids him entry. HK, you can't have your cake, and eat it too! I am currently in an ongoing debate with a friend about these symptoms of "moral relativism"; my friend seems to think that if someone just says they are a Christian, then they are- if they do not follow what's in the Bible, well, that's due to their human "weakness"- how convenient (don't get me wrong; I'm no friend of the Christian belief system, either- it's just that I don't see a lot of "Christian" suicide bombers around, so I feel Islam needs the most attention at the moment). HK's complaint about the minority in Islamic countries oppressing the "moderates" ignores the fact that this minority is actually attempting to follow the Quran to the letter, giving them a "high ground" that discourages opposition (this is why so little was heard against the 9/11 attacks from "moderates"- they knew that, according to the Quran, they had little to stand on, and thus risked the oftentimes fatal label of apostate); ignorance of the true nature of their own religion, fear of living without an alternative, and inertia of rest conspire to cause the masses to allow this situation to continue. I sincerely hope HK can access Spencer's book, although I doubt it will be easy in Pakistan- it is obvious that he has not studied the Hadiths (considered second only to the Quran in truth); they provide numerous examples of Muhhamad ordering the killing of those who offended him, and his praise of the killers.

Wow.. fantastic.. Good to know everyone has an opinion.. But i feel i must make a few clarifications:

With reference to my trying to become member of an exclusive countryclub.. Well as far as i am concerned i don't need membership of anything to be a muslim. Faith requires no organizational affiliation.

Please try to understand that i have as many problems with the characters who sit in the country club claiming that you must be part of the club to have the right to call yourself a muslim.

I also disagree with the clerics who claim that one must perform violent jihad to be a true muslim. I also disagree with those that claim that one must subdue your women to be a muslim. I also disagree that you must kill non-muslims to be a muslim.

In fac ti happen to disagree with most of the idiocy uttered by our oh-so-righteous clerics. However what i disagree with is their interpretation of Islam. I do NOT disagree with Islam as i see it.

This distinction is important because most of you think it impossible to be a muslim without subscibing to the stupidity of the fundamentalist clerics. Well that is quite simply not the case.

It also does not make me a bad muslim or a non-muslim or anything of the sort. Only god can judge my righteousness. Which is exactly why Islam does not have a process of excommunication. Excommunication is basically a process devised by humans. How can ANY human have the hubris to claim to know god's will and god's feelings and intentions towards another human being? Not possible. While most clerics are doing their damndest to claim this right for themselves, BY THE VERY PRECEPTS OF ISLAM i am a muslim.. Whether anybody accepts it or not.

It seems that there is simply too much disagreement about the personality of Mohammad. As far as my understanding goes, i believe him to have been a merciful and good human being. This i base on the history i have learnt in my life.

Now it seems that YOU people have learnt a different history. But i ask you, what is more important? That a BELIEVER believes that Mohammad was a good and merciful man ( which obliges the believer to do the same ) OR that non-believers ( who will never lead their lives according to muslim practices) believe that he was a murdering maniac.

The simple fact is that while you will claim that he was an evil barbarian, i do NOT think that of Mohammad. You can claim that i am brainwashed, but you know what.. I don't think it is all that bad to be brainwashed into believing that one must follow the examples of mercy and peace. The END RESULT is that i believe that i must be patient, merciful, generous, tolerant and loving to ALL HUMANS. So what's the problem? Does it bother you that YOUR version of history is different from mine.. WELL it is not exactly unthinkable that you yoursevles are victims of some level of brainwashing and misinformation. To think that ONLY YOU know how history transpired is pretty arrogant.

No offense but i see many prejudices in all the responses i have viewed. Mostly the fact that you assume that ANY INFORMATION portraying mohammad as a non-violent peaceful man must be "muslim revisionist history". What (other than contradiction of YOUR version of history) do you base this assumption of "revisionism" on?

I would appreciate it if you all didn't give so much credence to these dumbass clerical leaders. The FACT is that they are losing significance in the muslim world. Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia are already free of clerical interference with governance ( even though most government officials are muslim). Pakistan is at present diminishing the clerics to nothing. That is simply because the AVERAGE MUSLIM DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THE HATRED OF THE MULLAHS. But he is STILL a muslim. Now is he a BAD muslim?? Will you really believe the word of stupid mullahs on THIS account. I mean you never believe anything ELSE they say. Why then are you so willing to assume that only THEY know what true islam is? "I" don't. And it seems that neither do most other muslims in the world.

However the fact is that coercion is a VERY COMMON tactic employed by MOST nations. Why didn't the average christian denounce the Inquisition? because they were afraid of physical violence in THIS world and the eternal hellfire of the hereafter. And they were brought to this level of fearful passiveness by the coercion of a small group of christian clerics. In fact not all were passive. Many average christians of the time participated in the Inquisition with gusto. Does that make christians followers of a barbarian? Does that mean invalidation of Christ's message? It does NOT. What it DOES speak to is the success of the coercive tactics of the chrsitians clergy at the time. Nothing more.

Do the coercive tactics of a few mullahs invalidate the message of peace of mohammad? No it doesn't. it is merely another example of how "salvation peddlers" try to make a living.

There are often many allusions to Islam being no more than a twisted form of judaism. Well listen dear friends, ALL muslims agree that moses and jesus were the prophets of god bearing the law of god. OF COURSE many of the teachings will be the same.

About belief in the Torah and the Bible. Well the Torah is an OLDER version of god's law, hence the Quran takes precedence in cases of contradiction. Regarding the BIBLE, it is a bit tricky. Most christians cannot agree ont he full text of the bible so we don't exactly know what to compare. However you will find no contradictions between christ's teachings and the quran. We do not consider it as reliable as the Quran simple based on the fact that Christ was not the author of ANY of the books of the bible. Again this is not an invalidation of Christ as a man of god, but rather an invalidation of the christian CHURCH and church dogma. The CHURCH you must remember was created AFTER jesus' death and without his involvement.

I really am not asking anybody to convert or anything. But none of you assume that i can still be a normal functioning sensible nonviolent good person if i am a muslim.

And i think it is a BIG problem for a peaceful muslim like myself. because essentially YOU are the one calling me a terrorist and supporter of terrorist means> you don't even allow me the freedom to be a muslim and denounce violence. You don't even believe it is possible. What happens then is that i am left with TWO CHOICES. Be a terrorist suspect for life ( or as long as you are muslim) OR join the crazy fundos. I mean nobody is going to believe me anyways when i say i am peaceful and my religion is peaceful.

Personally i find myself to be strong enough not to have to attach myself to any group. But most humans are not that lucky. Prejudices have a nasty habit of being self-fulfilling prophesies.

Dammit if i am going to be considered a ticking time bomb all my life, i might just be pushed into believing it. Why? Because not only to the mullahs tell me that as a muslim i must be violent. But so too does the opposite party. Can you see the problem?

I am just asking you guys to give another human the benefit of the doubt. I do not need "salvation". I do not need pity and i MOST CERTAINLY do not need special treatment.

I AM a muslim. I DO believe in Islam. I DO believe in Mohammad as a good human. I DO believe that he taught patience, love and tolerance. I DO believe that Islam is the way forward for all humans.. Let me tell you why.

Islam unlike ALL OTHER MAJOR RELIGIONS does NOT have a theologically sanctioned clergy. There is NO MENTION of Mullahs or Maulvis or Ayatollahs or Maulanas or ANY OTHER CLERICAL REFERENCE in the Quran or the Hadith.

Islam is the ONLY religion int he world that ACTUALLY allows every individual to decide for THEMSELVES what Islam is. Now i realize that this is not how mainstream Islam is practiced in the world, HOWEVER that is also not what i am defending/promoting. What i tell you is a PRINCIPLE.

Since Islam in PRINCIPLE is FREE of organized salvation peddlers, i believe it to be the way forward. The ONLY WAY we can have unity in faith is when ALL HUMANS make up their mind INDEPENDENTLY of religious organizations.

But it'll take a while before people figure that out.

Ok i just had a LOOOONG rant adressed to everybody, but you bring up some points i feel i must explain directly:

1) Hajj as a pillar of islam is only compulsory if it is POSSIBLE for a muslim to perform the pilgrimage. Forget me who isn't ALLOWED to go there because of the stupid saudi wahabi monarchy. What about all those who will never be able to AFFORD the pilgrimage intheir lives? I would be an unfair demand on people for whom it is simply NOT POSSIBLE. And if you check up on it you will realize that this condition is attached to the pilgrimage. A man must FIRST ensure the security and life chances of his family before. So i am a muslim EVEN THOUGH i may never peform the pilgrimage to Mecca.

2) The "promised Messiah" has indeed been mentioned in the Quran. In fact that is where we detract from mainstream Islam.

In the Quran the advent of the "Imam Mehdi" is referred to. The Mehdi is the promised messiah that will lead the muslim world to victory by uniting all muslims.

The muslim "clergy" has borrowed from christian dogma regarding the advent of the mehdi. In the Quran the Imam mehdi is said to be the same as Jesus. By that MY sect interprets the verse as meaning that a man witht he same role and characteristics as jesus will return as the messiah. We base this on the fact that we don't believe God will contravene his own laws of the universe. Of course we believe he CAN , but God's miracle lies in the fact that he DOESN'T HAVE TO.

Mainstream muslim clerics believe that Jesus HIMSELF will return. In this they have borrowed from christianity.

We believe that a gentleman named Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was revealed to the world in 1898 ( i think ) who claimed to be jesus resurrected. Now i know many a nutjob has claimed the same, but i would refer to this man's teachings as proof that he was not a nutjob. Of course this is up to each individual to judge. Personally his teachings appeal to me MAINLY because of the COMPLETE ABSENCE OF VIOLENCE. We are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to resort to violence int he name of religion. NO VIOLENCE. Not against women, not against children, not against jews,christians,buddhists,hindus and not against anybody who disagrees. The ONLY jihad that is allowed is that of the PEN i.e only through discourse and dialogue. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Anyhow there is no doubt among ALL muslims that a Promised Messiah is to come. The difference lies on in how that promise is interpreted. Some believe in the miraculous return of Jesus himself with a sword in his hand and light shining down from heaven with the angels singing. And then there are those of us who believe that the Promised Messiah will arrive (or DID arrive) as a human. He was rejected by his people ( as was jesus ) he healed the sick ( not by miracle, but by instilling hygeinic practices amongst his followers) and most importantly he came to put his people back on the right path. Just as Jesus came 1400 years after Moses, so too did Mirza Ghulam Ahmed come 1400 years after Mohammad.

I would advise that you check out the following site Al Islam Online - Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for some more information.

Another interesting fact for you may be that Ahmediyyat ( as the sect is called.. not because of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, but rather because Ahmed means " person with faith" .. so directly translated it means "people of faith") is the FASTEST GROWING RELIGION ON EARTH. Now i know that many many faiths claim the same amazing ( and often unproven ) statistic about their own faith, but considering that the following has increased from 0 to 100 million in little more than a century, it is not unthinkable that it might be true for this sect.

Again i am not trying to cenvert you. But you have to understand that the Quran is just as open to interpretation as the bible or any other religious text. So while the crazy fundos may truly believe that they are following the quran, they are only following THEIR UNDERSTANDING of the Quran. This is a FACT which tyey try to counter by denying the right of eveyr individual to understand and practice Islam according to their own undersanding. Just as the christian clergy ( or any clergy) attempt to place themselves between God and the population, so too are the mullahs trying the same by claiming exclusive rights to understand and interpret Islam.

If the populations of muslims countries can do ANYTHING for themselves and their religion, it would be to assert the right to individual understanding and interpretation ( as indeed the Quran states in the opening passage "This book is for those who wish to understand".. See it gives NO exclusivity to anybody and it does NOT impose clerical superiority.. which is why i believe it to be the way forward. It leaves religion to the individual.. IN PRINCIPLE.)

LASTLY ( sorry for being so long winded ) regarding the HADITH. Well they are completely unreliable and still controversial because not all sects believe int he same hadith. As a source of spiritual guidance, unfortunately so many human hands have been messing with them, that very often they contradict the Quran OR present Mohammad as an intolerant and vengeful man ( all while trying to sanctify him..) rendering them useless. If the Quran states that Mohammad was a man of peace, any hadith used to justify an "exception" to the rule must necesarrily be a falsified hadith. However, the muslim clergy derives its "divinely sanctioned" power almost solely from the hadith. Therefore they will fight tooth and nail to keep them as a main information source for muslims. Because if they left it to the Quran, they would suddenly not have any divine justification for their profession as salvation peddlers.. and they couldn't possibly have that.

The mullahs do NOT have the exclusive right to decide what is Islamic and what is not. It's hard enough for the muslims to understand that, but when even the "enemy" says so it becomes doubly hard.

Great post, hkbajwa, except for this little point. One of us DOES believe that you can be a muslim and still be a normal functioning sensible nonviolent good person.

I'm not meddling but yall might like to see the debate in the 'Introduce yourself' forum under 'Truth on Obama Barack'.