That is a VERY valid point and i wish you would listen to my explanation before you assume i am lying to you.. I am a 100% honest person and you are certainly not important enough for me to lie to.. let's jsut get that straight..

Anyhow as i said your point is valid.. but please understand:

Pakistan is a 3rd world country.. We have an abysmal literacy rate of 15%.. The country is poor and corrupt.

Fear of the hereafter is a tool used very often by elites the world over to subjugate the masses. The masses allow themselves to be subjugated due to their fear and ignorance.

I am sure you are aware that it is not impossible for a minority to impose their rule on a majority.. let's take the sunni muslims in Iraq.. or the Boers in South Africa..

Pakistan is the only country in the world other than Israel that has been created on religious grounds. Being a MUSLIM country is the prime token of identity Pakistan has ( i mean other than that Pakistan is India ). Because being "muslim" is such an important part of this country, there is always great fear of being "excommunicated". Fact is that the constitutional amendments of the 70s reduced non-muslim citizens to second grade. It is difficult being non-muslim in Pakistan. My sect of Islam is considered apostate in pakistan so my family can actually only vote on the "minority quota". It is a travesty.

Nevertheless these constitutional amendments were implemented by General Zia ( our dictator through the 80s ). During this time he gave the clergy separate legislative and law enforcement powers. During his time there was a move towards talibanization. My mother could not go into the market without wearing a scarf and men and women alike were whipped and jailed for no other offences than running foul of a cleric. This power became so great that gangs of cleric thugs started popping up. For instance our biggest educational facility ( University of Punjab) is controlled by religious student organizations. A professor i know who taught there once got beaten up in the cafeteria for having the audacity to sit and eat with his WIFE in public.

Please understand that the power of the clerics is not based in the belief of the common man.. but rather in the threat of violence and persecution from these clerical thugs. As i have said plenty of times before the muclim fundos are a bigger problem for the local populations than for any foreigner.

Apart from the threat of violence the clerics also take advantage of the illiteracy and superstition of the common man. This is a country where even educated people still believe that certain chants and talismans can protect you from harm. It is not a hard task for clerics to invoke the threat of hellfire in the case of disobedience.

So while the VAST MAJORITY disagree with Osama's actions, the clerics really do have enough power to keep people in line. I used to do a radio show 4 days a week. I used to bring up topics like Indo-Pak relations, gender equality, religious freedom and tolerance. My friends constantly begged me to keep quiet about these thing.. why?? well they were (and still are) CONVINCED that some cleric was gonna come shoot my head off. Mind you these are friends from the highest echelons of pakistani bureaucratic and political society. Even BIGSHOTS are still scared of screwing with the clerics.

Having been raised in an environment of religious thuggeri, the FEAR of clerics in the common man is MORE than just a sens eof trepidation.. it is ACTUAL FEAR of reprisal. That is because the common man KNOWS how wrong the clerics are and how dangerous they are. There is condemnation but it is understated because of the fear of reprisal.

In 1999 President Musharraf took over pakistan ( it should be noted that our two democratically elected prime ministers before that ALSO pandered to the clerics and Nawaz Sharif infact considered them a major power base). WHen he took over one of the first things he did was release the media from state control. Since then 50 plus new TV channels, 200 radio channels and a multitude of local newspapers have exploded on to the scene.

The Pakistani population is being treated to a daily dose of cleric humiliation. Common people are beginning to find their voice and clerics are being relegated to irrelevance. The only political power they have is in the Frontier Province and even THERE they are expected to lose their majority in next year's elections...

Pakistan has caught more terror suspects than any nation in the world including the US. Pakistan has started opening negotiations with Israel.. The Taliban is no longer being supported by the government.. our local media is becoming increasingly bolder and more analytical overnight.. The Hudood Ordinance which is the PRIME CONSTITUTIONAL POWER SOURCE for the clerics is up for revision and eventual repeal.

I'm sorry jefferson, but this is what i am talking about. I say what i say based on my extensive knowledge of the workings of a muslim nation. It is not pie-in-the-sky rhetoric.

Changes like these cannot possibly be reported on international media because it is so localized and requires a LOT of background knowledge to put in perpective. You guys have no possibility of knowing these things. I jsut wish you would take my analysis seriously.. i do not make it to demean your nation or your religion.. i tell you these things so you don't have a wrong opinion of Islam and muslim nations.

You say that the muslim nations are not doing enough to curb fanaticism internally.. i am telling you that they ARE ( at least some of them).. Considering the constraints in terms of social, religious and governmental pressure, that the populaiton has to deal with, change is coming in leaps and bounds.

The reason i consistently suggest a change in US policy is because anti-americanism has become the last rallying point for clerics here in pakistan. Actions like the Iraq invasion and the impending air raids in Iran are precisely the little bits of information the clerics use to garner support.

The majority of the population is doing everything to bring about change in spite of the illiteracy and superstition inherent in this culture... US actions abroad nullify those efforts because even though the mullahs get discredited theologically, they REMAIN the rallying point for those who feel anger at the US. As long as they do so, and as long as US actions CONFIRM their rhetoric, they will never completely be irrelevant.

This is the same manner in which muslim clerics THE WORLD OVER garner support for their insanity. YOu may think that the US doesn't have to care what the world thinks.. and yes the US is under no obligation to comply to the morals of other nations. However GOOD GOVERNANCE include good relations with the world.

THe perception of america by the COMMON MAN in muslim countries is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WAR ON TERROR. Unless you garner the support of the majority of the populations, terrorism cannot be wiped out ( unless you propose genocide of all muslims.. and i hope you do not).

Yes i get angry at US actions in the world.. I think ur president is a nutcase who is dragging your nation into political stupidity. You know of the report that states terrorism is on the rise.. YOu say it is because Muslims are "evil".. isn't that a simplistic view of human nature? ( yes muslims ARE humans) Is it not perhaps more relevant to analyse how US actions are being PERCEIVED in the world?

Sure there will always be nutjobs trying to detroy america, but it has ALWAYS been so. But a serious attempt to win the hearts of the common muslims is NOT an impossibility, and my personal evaluation is that it is the ONLY THING the US can do to remain a power to be reckoned with. Seriously man. Pissing off 1.2 billion people cannot possibly be considered clever politics. And there is no way in HELL it will prove to be beneficial to the US. Just as nothing your president has done has proven beneficial for the US.

Please accept that i could quite possibly have a better knowledge of US-"muslim" relations as they are perceived by the common muslim. If so then perhaps you could also consider that my posts aren't a pack of lies and propoganda. Honestly dude.. do you think that a debate forum based in the US is important enough for me to spend my time spreading propoganda?? I come here to debate andcommunicate.. but you will not be able to communicate with me if you believe that i am telling you lies.

Oooooooooo, Mr. Muslim is getting nasty. Your religion is evil. The Koran says to cut of the head and the fingers of the unbelievers. The Koran says to beat your wife. Who the fuck are you?

We are debating. You are the one who came here telling us Islam was the way to go. All I have done is quote your own holy book right back at you and you call me a bigot and start the cussing. I have not said a word about you personally. Maybe you should examine your religion and see if it really is the "religion of peace". Your words say one thing, but the actions of muslims all over the world say something else. Here are the words of you own holy book the Quran:

Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”

Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”

Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”

You came here to debate. Defend your position on Islam.

We will never fully agree, I still think your religion is dangerous, but as long as they remain peaceful I couldn't care less. When the fanatics get control, I've never seen a religion full of so much hate. Oh well, at least there are those like you to keep us in check, it's to bad people like Ludin and Lucid only help spread that negative image of your religion.

If you knew me you would know that even though I am a Christian I believe every religion is dangerous, yes, even my own. I criticize those of my own religion ALL THE TIME, so it's not just Islam I mock, I think all religions are flawed because they are left in the hands of humans and they interpret them sometimes in harmful ways. I just wish people who support radical Islam would grow out of the 18th century.

If you insult Jesus, you will not get your head chopped off. If you insult Mohammed, you will.

That is NOT true. You have insulted Mohammed in numerous posts, and your head has not been chopped off.

well good luck to them EUROPEANS with their holocaust.. the whole world is stationed in afghanistan and can't take control of few talibans and there they will bring another holocaust on muslim who are over a billion..

Well said, hkbajwa. I hope you continue to post here. There are many who visit and don't post. Hopefully your arguments ring true for them.

I have friends who happen to be muslim. They are law-abiding, hard-working, courteous, and wonderful people. If the only way Americans know muslims (or any group) is via television or even the internet, then they only know what the media is feeding them, or what they hunt up online. You get a better sense of people when you meet them in person and have a chance to talk to them.

...yet.

But don't kid yourself. If he was living in a Muslim country, he'd long ago be dead.

Ah, but he's living in the USA. He's much more likely to end up with a bullet in his body. We don't seem to be able to settle our differences without a gun.

No, I don't believe that's true.

And even if it was true, it's a diversion. You know as well as I do that if you insult Allah, in a Muslim country, you're almost certainly going to end up dead.