Is this how a 'Peaceful Religion' Acts? - Page 4

Steven M · 10-13-2006, 10:52 PM

Well said Alias. I think it's important to highlight the fact that the verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy which Jaxian interprets as demanding murder are actually just part of the Israelites code of law (therefore not murderous), which the community had accepted. Since Christians today do not have those laws under their modern governments, there is no reason to try to apply them today.

I cannot disagree more with Jaxian when he says that the more fundamentalist you get in Christianity, the more you support murder. It's probably important to define fundamentalism here as either:

1. a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching; or
2. a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles. [Merriam-Webster]

Following these definitions, the most conservative fundamental Christians I know are the least likely to support any kind of violence towards homosexuals, or people of other religions.

I do understand what Jaxian is saying about being able to find peace, goodness, etc. in the Qur'an, but I believe that when you consider it as an entire book, and look at the lives of its followers (from Muhammed to the present day), the conclusion to be reached is that the radical extremists are more consistent with Islam than the moderates are.

Jaxian · 10-16-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

Jesus did not "throw" out any law.

The Bible says Jesus did not throw out any law. But modern Christian beliefs do throw out laws (as will be explained below).

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

Those verses do not demand murder, they are punishment. Every man deserves death because of sin. That is what the law was to show. When you execute someone on death row, it is not murder, it is punishment for your sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven M

Well said Alias. I think it's important to highlight the fact that the verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy which Jaxian interprets as demanding murder are actually just part of the Israelites code of law (therefore not murderous), which the community had accepted. Since Christians today do not have those laws under their modern governments, there is no reason to try to apply them today.

Alias says that the laws are to show that every man deserves death for his sins. But that is not what the laws say. The laws don't say "every person must be killed". They say, "followers of God must kill followers of other religions". That doesn't teach that everyone deserves death: it teachs that non-Christians deserve death.

Steven said that killing non-Christians was okay because it was the law of Israel. Because Christians communities today have different laws, we must abide by that different law. But think about that for a minute. Is morality based on whatever Christians communities decide is law?

If you lived back in the time of the Israelites, would it be okay to kill people of different religions? What if Christians today decided to go back to the law of the Israelites? Would that make it okay to kill people of different religions?

Were the inquisitions in Europe okay, because they were the law of Europe? Was Hitler's killing of Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies okay, because that was the law of Germany? No, of course not! God's will does not change to match the law of each Christian nation. Each Christian nation changes its law to match what they believe is God's will.

God didn't just say "follow the laws of your nation". God said explained that his followers should kill other people because that is his will. Israel created its laws because that was God's will. Take a look at some passages:

Lines 1-6 here definitely explain God's will:
Deuteronomy, from The holy Bible, King James version

Leviticus 20 is spoken by God:
Leviticus, from The holy Bible, King James version

Even lines 2-5 are understood to be the will of God:
Deuteronomy, from The holy Bible, King James version

These passages all demand the killing of people. What leads you to believe that these laws don't apply if you're a follower of God in a different nation?

I can totally see how the inquisitions in Europe were justified in the Bible. Open up to Deuteronomy, the entire book pretty much says to kill non-Christians.

Christians today don't believe in this sort of killing because they've discarded most of the laws of the Old Testament. Europe in the Dark Ages still believed in those laws, and that's why we saw Christians killing people of different religions.

Quote:

I cannot disagree more with Jaxian when he says that the more fundamentalist you get in Christianity, the more you support murder. It's probably important to define fundamentalism here as either:

1. a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching; or
2. a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles. [Merriam-Webster]

Following these definitions, the most conservative fundamental Christians I know are the least likely to support any kind of violence towards homosexuals, or people of other religions.

I may have misused the word "fundamentalist". I was attempting to say that the more traditional you get...or the more you interepret the Bible like people originally interpreted it. The original interpretations of the Bible very much supported the murder of people of different religions.

Quote:

I do understand what Jaxian is saying about being able to find peace, goodness, etc. in the Qur'an, but I believe that when you consider it as an entire book, and look at the lives of its followers (from Muhammed to the present day), the conclusion to be reached is that the radical extremists are more consistent with Islam than the moderates are.

You say that I should consider the entirety of the Qur'an, but I think you should consider the entirety of the Bible. More recently, Christians have become kinder and more tolerant of people different than themselves. But throughout most of the history of Christianity, most Christians killed people of different religions.

Modern Christians are finding ways to accept people different than themselves. Modern Muslims can do the same thing.

Or if they can't, then help me understand: Why are Christians today able to avoid the laws spoken in the Old Testament? Why can they change from the practices of Christians in Europe in the Dark Ages? What makes Christianity so much different from Islam?

alias · 10-17-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxian

The Bible says Jesus did not throw out any law. But modern Christian beliefs do throw out laws (as will be explained below).

Alias says that the laws are to show that every man deserves death for his sins. But that is not what the laws say. The laws don't say "every person must be killed". They say, "followers of God must kill followers of other religions". That doesn't teach that everyone deserves death: it teachs that non-Christians deserve death.

Steven said that killing non-Christians was okay because it was the law of Israel. Because Christians communities today have different laws, we must abide by that different law. But think about that for a minute. Is morality based on whatever Christians communities decide is law?

If you lived back in the time of the Israelites, would it be okay to kill people of different religions? What if Christians today decided to go back to the law of the Israelites? Would that make it okay to kill people of different religions?

Were the inquisitions in Europe okay, because they were the law of Europe? Was Hitler's killing of Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies okay, because that was the law of Germany? No, of course not! God's will does not change to match the law of each Christian nation. Each Christian nation changes its law to match what they believe is God's will.

God didn't just say "follow the laws of your nation". God said explained that his followers should kill other people because that is his will. Israel created its laws because that was God's will. Take a look at some passages:

Lines 1-6 here definitely explain God's will:
Deuteronomy, from The holy Bible, King James version

Leviticus 20 is spoken by God:
Leviticus, from The holy Bible, King James version

Even lines 2-5 are understood to be the will of God:
Deuteronomy, from The holy Bible, King James version

These passages all demand the killing of people. What leads you to believe that these laws don't apply if you're a follower of God in a different nation?

I can totally see how the inquisitions in Europe were justified in the Bible. Open up to Deuteronomy, the entire book pretty much says to kill non-Christians.

Christians today don't believe in this sort of killing because they've discarded most of the laws of the Old Testament. Europe in the Dark Ages still believed in those laws, and that's why we saw Christians killing people of different religions.

I may have misused the word "fundamentalist". I was attempting to say that the more traditional you get...or the more you interepret the Bible like people originally interpreted it. The original interpretations of the Bible very much supported the murder of people of different religions.

You say that I should consider the entirety of the Qur'an, but I think you should consider the entirety of the Bible. More recently, Christians have become kinder and more tolerant of people different than themselves. But throughout most of the history of Christianity, most Christians killed people of different religions.

Modern Christians are finding ways to accept people different than themselves. Modern Muslims can do the same thing.

Or if they can't, then help me understand: Why are Christians today able to avoid the laws spoken in the Old Testament? Why can they change from the practices of Christians in Europe in the Dark Ages? What makes Christianity so much different from Islam?

The law is finished, done, over, it no longer applies. The law in the Quran still applies. That is the difference. There never was or is a law in the bible saying to murder Jews or Christians. The Quran says to so just that. That is the difference. I can't make it any plainer than that. Go to my last message, it explains it as well as can be explained.

What do you think about this?

In Acre, Israel, this past weekend, what was supposed to be a joyous celebration of Simchas Torah degenerated into a near pogrom when for two nights an Arab mob physically attacked Jewish worshipers with crowbars, rocks and firecrackers, and verbally assaulted them with anti-Israel and anti-Semitic slurs. The worshipers were students from the hesder yeshiva Ruah Tzfonit (Northern Wind) located in the mixed Jewish-Arab Wolfson neighborhood.

Rest of the story at this link"

Practitioners of that ‘religion of peace’ turn blood-thirsty on Jewish celebratory holy day. Where's the media's outrage?

alias · 10-17-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxian

The Bible says Jesus did not throw out any law. But modern Christian beliefs do throw out laws (as will be explained below).

Alias says that the laws are to show that every man deserves death for his sins. But that is not what the laws say. The laws don't say "every person must be killed". They say, "followers of God must kill followers of other religions". That doesn't teach that everyone deserves death: it teachs that non-Christians deserve death.

Steven said that killing non-Christians was okay because it was the law of Israel. Because Christians communities today have different laws, we must abide by that different law. But think about that for a minute. Is morality based on whatever Christians communities decide is law?

If you lived back in the time of the Israelites, would it be okay to kill people of different religions? What if Christians today decided to go back to the law of the Israelites? Would that make it okay to kill people of different religions?

Were the inquisitions in Europe okay, because they were the law of Europe? Was Hitler's killing of Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies okay, because that was the law of Germany? No, of course not! God's will does not change to match the law of each Christian nation. Each Christian nation changes its law to match what they believe is God's will.

God didn't just say "follow the laws of your nation". God said explained that his followers should kill other people because that is his will. Israel created its laws because that was God's will. Take a look at some passages:

Lines 1-6 here definitely explain God's will:
Deuteronomy, from The holy Bible, King James version

Leviticus 20 is spoken by God:
Leviticus, from The holy Bible, King James version

Even lines 2-5 are understood to be the will of God:
Deuteronomy, from The holy Bible, King James version

These passages all demand the killing of people. What leads you to believe that these laws don't apply if you're a follower of God in a different nation?

I can totally see how the inquisitions in Europe were justified in the Bible. Open up to Deuteronomy, the entire book pretty much says to kill non-Christians.

Christians today don't believe in this sort of killing because they've discarded most of the laws of the Old Testament. Europe in the Dark Ages still believed in those laws, and that's why we saw Christians killing people of different religions.

I may have misused the word "fundamentalist". I was attempting to say that the more traditional you get...or the more you interepret the Bible like people originally interpreted it. The original interpretations of the Bible very much supported the murder of people of different religions.

You say that I should consider the entirety of the Qur'an, but I think you should consider the entirety of the Bible. More recently, Christians have become kinder and more tolerant of people different than themselves. But throughout most of the history of Christianity, most Christians killed people of different religions.

Modern Christians are finding ways to accept people different than themselves. Modern Muslims can do the same thing.

Or if they can't, then help me understand: Why are Christians today able to avoid the laws spoken in the Old Testament? Why can they change from the practices of Christians in Europe in the Dark Ages? What makes Christianity so much different from Islam?

The law is finished, done, over, it no longer applies. The law in the Quran still applies. That is the difference. There never was or is a law in the bible saying to murder Jews or Christians. The Quran says to do just that. That is the difference. I can't make it any plainer than that. Go to my last message, it explains it as well as can be explained.

What do you think about this?

In Acre, Israel, this past weekend, what was supposed to be a joyous celebration of Simchas Torah degenerated into a near pogrom when for two nights an Arab mob physically attacked Jewish worshipers with crowbars, rocks and firecrackers, and verbally assaulted them with anti-Israel and anti-Semitic slurs. The worshipers were students from the hesder yeshiva Ruah Tzfonit (Northern Wind) located in the mixed Jewish-Arab Wolfson neighborhood.

Rest of the story at this link"

Practitioners of that ‘religion of peace’ turn blood-thirsty on Jewish celebratory holy day. Where's the media's outrage?

brutalis07 · 10-26-2006, 05:18 PM

Many religoins can not hold the name Religion of Peace. The Christians can't because of the crasades and other antics, Islamics can't because of their wars agianst anyone not muslim, Protestants cant for example in england back when the Tutors Ruled and many others. Religions are for the most part peaceful but its when they clash that a problem arises. And when holy wars occur there is hardly a stop to them untill one religion is defeated.

alias · 10-26-2006, 05:24 PM

The Christian crusades were a response to aggressive Islam to beat them back. Purely self defense on the part of the Christians. Same as today. We are fighting because muslims attacked us for no reason.

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