Ok this is not a detailed analysis but rather an answer to a question being debated in Pakistan at the moment.

The Pakistani Parliament has just passed the Women's Protection Bill. The WPB seeks to amend the Hudood Ordinance from Zia's time. The Hudood ordinance is a document for which Pakistan has been highly criticized because it victimizes women and minorities.

Currently the Pakistan government is a in a process of amending or completely abilishing the hudood ordinance, much to the ire to the fundo mullahs. However the mullahs have such little backing int he country at the moment that their wails of complaint wer more or less ignored.

Yesterday i was watching a debate in which the head of the Islamic Ideology Council was giving his opinion. SOme facts startled even me.

1) According to popular undestand, according to "Islamic" law, a woman's testimony is equal to half that of a man AND in case she is the plaintiff in a case she must submit at least 4 muslim MEN as witnesses. This is especialyl problematic when issues like rape come up.

According to the IIC leader a clear distinction is to be made between criminal law processes and corporate and civil law processes.

In criminal law, a woman's testimony is equal to a man's. It is only in civil and corporate matters that a woman requires more witnesses than a man ( the idea that only muslim witnesses are acceptable was also discarded )

The reason the distinction is made is because women are considered to be more vulnerable to pressure (social, emotional ). To prevent exploitation of this, women are required to have additional witnesses that can vouch for her mindset and for her actions. This is not to say that women cannot be believed as men.. but rather to ensure that a man cannot discard a woman's rights because she is a woman.

Fact is that while the number of witnesses can present serious hurdles for justice in a criminal case, it only goes to SECURE a woman's position in civil and corporate matters. For instance a woman will require 4 witnesses to her signing a contract as opposed to a man's 2.

I don't know if anybody was even thinking about this issue, but personally i was supremely annoyed by this seeming injustice between a woman and a man.

But taken like this i again believe that women and men are equal even in Islam. Corporate and civil law is just a matter of paperwork. It is in criminal law that a women face serious problems if they are not considered equals.

That unfortunately is a major problem in those theocracies that seek to implement "sharia" law. This distinction is not made and that means women invarianly get the raw end of the deal. However one must understand that chauvinism is a CULTURAL value imposed on Islam. Not the other way around.

"But taken like this i again believe that women and men are equal even in Islam."


Thats cause your a blind fool


Women are being abused, even mutilated IN THE NAME OF ISLAM

Correct JayD. Nothing but propaganda. If anyone believes women have equal rights in Islam, they are stupid or a liar.

Well .. i figured i would hear something like this. Then explain to me why I as a muslim can believe in , support and live by the principle of gender equality?

I think it is ridiculous that you guys who have an obvious prejudice against this religion CLAIM to know MORE about the religion and its practice than i do..

I put this particular item up because it was a small issue that had been bothering me. I could not understand why a woman would be considerd legally less than a man.

And i can say with confidence that no matter how primitive and chauvinistic some clerics are, Islam as a religion IS NOT CHAUVINIST.

Again i have to speel out for you gentlemen that there is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between perceptions of Islamic law by different cultures. For isntance the North Western Province of Pakistan is historically a VERY patriarchal tribal society. The people of punjab less so. That is why clerics in the NWFP cry bloody murder ( taliban style) when women start demanding jobs and representation. On the other hand the Punjab has always been a more integrated society ( agriculture kept women in the fiels and in the job market ) . Lahore ( whihc is the capital of punjab and my home town) is beginning to look very much like an equal opportunity city. In fact my female friends work as teachers, lawyers, financers, bankers and some run their own businesses.

And this is something supported by that very same muslim society.

So either you can claim you know better and call us "bad muslims". OR you could accept that perhaps cultural values of certain peoples are being mistaken as Islamic edict.

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ok cool i think i am not explaining myself properly.

Firstly i am half danish and half pakistani and i have lived most of my life in pakistan. My opinions about gender equality are NOT the product of western society. It is a principle in my family that women and men ARE equal. My aunts are all highly educated professionals. my cousins are also taking the same path. This is NOT the result of western influence. Even my great grandmother was an educated lady ( though the society in her youth afforded few opportunities for women to work.. so she stayed at home)

Anyhow being AMERICAN is not the only way that one may have sensible and humane opinions/principles.

Secondly i agree that most muslim nations have severe problems when it comes to womens' rights. But what i am saying is that these nations are chauvinist in their indigenous cultures.. not as a result of Islam. We can take nations such as Malaysia or Indonesia where women make up as big a part of the workforce as men. Basically ISLAM is not the reason for a chauvinist culture.

Granted most clerics USE islam to justify unreasonable and unjust chauvinistic legistlation/social norms. Hence the mixup.

A country like say Afghnistan would invariably have been chauvinist REGARDLESS of religious affiliation. It is the Pushtun culture that deems women to be fit only for home and kitchen. There is a longer sociological explanation for that. In brief, cultures which are bred in an environment of scarcity ( food, water, land) tend to guard inheritance very jealously. As a result they tend to be EXTREMELY protective of the vessels of reproduction i.e women. This in turn leads to extreme measures being adopted to ENSURE control over reproduction and inheritance. Unfortunately women bear the brunt of it.

Places of plenty like the Punjab in Pakistan do NOT have the same chauvinism. yet both places follow the same religion. Does that not go to indicate that religious affiliation is not the primus motor in development of a chauvinist culture.

Yet the chauvinist creed is easily taken up by ANY clerical class ( christian societies have gone through the same in the past. Did you know that SWITZERLAND gave women the vote AFTER pakistan?) Using a hammer to break a skull is MISUSE of a good tool. ROughly what the fuckin clerics are doing with Islam.

I do NOT consider women's right a small matter. In fact i believe it is one of the MAIN social problems in under developed countried because women are not utlized to their full potential. it's just a pure waste.

I can only tell you that which i have learnt. Women are not less than men. They are DIFFERENT. Which is why DIFFERENT rules apply to them. However DIFFERENCE does not imply INEQUALITY.

Pleas remember that i speak not of mainstream islam as the clerics would have us practice it. But of the basic principles of Islam which most clerics don't have the mental capacity to understand.

I would suggest that you COMPLETELY IGNORE anything any damn cleric says.

Check out the following website Al Islam Online - Ahmadiyya Muslim Community