An that wasnt just lip service. When Jesus speaks, its happens. Those people are in Heaven right now. Most people think of them as the evil ones who killed Jesus. What they dont know is, at this point, better is it to be them, than it is for alot of us, to be us.

Forgiveness is easier if you have tools to help you do it.

What are you suggesting are some of these "tools"?

Mindfulness, deep listening, compassionate listening, and loving speech. From those come the realization that I have more than one response to choose from if someone cuts me off in traffic or whatever, that I may not understand what the person is really saying, and so on. In some ways, I think mindfulness opens the door to the other tools, at least it did for me.

I see.

I hope this isn't a repost, but...

I have a problem with the religious views on forgiveness. When does forgiveness simply become inaction?

Where everything is forgiven, there is no justice, and there is no order. I'm afraid if the Amish were in charge of the country on 9/11, would there have been much of anything done in reprimand?

I'm afraid that only once the earth's policies are geared toward altruism and the human condition can something like "forgiveness" be feasible for contemporary implementation. Until then, can you really blame governments as being 'ungodly' for not making forgiveness it's platform?

No, until then, I think it's only something abstract. Something that only the individual can get something out of, and take it how they wish to take it.

Okay Alias - how the heck did you get Katczinsky's password?

It was difficult. Especially considering it's 14 random characters (not just letters ).

I don't see forgiveness and justice as being opposed to each other. I think it is totally possible - even sometimes mandatory - to extend forgiveness while executing justice.

I also don't believe that forgiveness is the same as saying "what you did is okay" or "you never did anything wrong".

Jefferson said:

Quote:

I also don't believe that forgiveness is the same as saying "what you did is okay" or "you never did anything wrong".

That is so very true to me too, Jefferson. I think the plainest example that would show it is so that forgiveness is not the same as saying what an offender did is okay and not wrong is when someone does something wrong to one of your children.

There is no way that you would ever make light of or excuse a violation against your own child. And yet we are to know forgiveness for that one.

I know we all think of the Amish community that faced this in such a huge and horrible way.

I often wonder how Jesus' mother forgave all the people she saw torture her Son. She is a beautiful example, I am sure.

OD