Dear, that was incredible. Like being in a pentecostal church, except enlightening, not frightening. I'm still agnostic, but bravo. Score one for the good christians.

Thank you Antithesis, you blest my heart.

I too have been well acquainted with the 'frightening' of the Pentecostal brand of Christianity...boo!


Antithesis, I truly admire and totally respect agnostics. It is that identity that says, "I don't know" and is the most honest and truly is the name of the wisemen: Seekers.

OD

So what then did God mean when he said, "all those not found written in the book of life, were cast into the lake of fire"? Who or what was he talking about?

On the web site you gave, it claims the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable. Yet no other parable in the bible gives names to people. NTM even if it was a parable, what was its teachings? What truth was being told in the rich mans eternal torment in hell? What truth could be taught from untruth? If in fact thats what it was.

Dear JayD,

I am so not gonna ignore your post! But do know that I only now took time to check the forums and can't sit and think and devote to a proper and full reply since I am Mommy and have schoolies to get up and ready...at least I don't think it will be a snow day!
Hmmm to that though as we are blanketed in the white cold of winter precipitation.
I will say for starters, of course it is a parable JayD! I mean, all the text around there are parables too...
And think of it, is it gonna be heaven to you, if there IS a place of eternal torment, if the folk in hell can cry out for you to hear them?
Wow, why be loving your neighbor as yourself here and now, if later you are gonna have to just suck it up to hear all the residents of hell screaming out in torture.
Heaven would be then a place only a sadist would enjoy, and I am gonna betcha anything that 'sadists' would not inherit the kingdom of heaven, right?
Circular, JayD, circular...
And so I will get back on later, hopefully and explore this a bit more.
And in the meanwhile, I am happy to say that once the fear for self is out of the way, I think folk can truly love God.
OD

I'll be waiting. Another thing though, what do you think God ment when he said, No murderer, adulterer, fornicator, Homosexual(or whatever) ect ect will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--

JayD, I see all of us in the same boat, if you look at these verses. Don't you? Surely there isn't one among humankind that is not guilty of at least one of those practices. But the best verse to remedy our helpless condition is that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And in that same verse: ALL shall be changed. And any bit of that which is carnal aka flesh and blood, will be consumed by the consuming fire of our God. We will not be separated from him for all eternity...we will rather all be purged and what is left is spirit, is the true image we were created to bear: His image. Even as we now do mark the perfect Man, Christ Jesus.

Some, may very well have more that gets purged later and some now. But ALL will come forth, the sure reward of the Savior of ALL men!

OD

I will peruse this later today myself JayD...

I have to catch up on some stuff, but must tell you that any questions I have about certain Scriptural texts will not be answered outside the revealed perfect love of God and the justice that gives to His Son the victory, the reward of what He came to accomplish.

His Word is magnified above His name and what is His Word, but Christ, the Word made flesh that dwelt among us!

OD

2 Peter 2:4-9 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c]

This among several others are pretty hard to get around.

Wow, I read as much of that as I could. No offense, but what a crock. Im not saying it was a parable, but if it was, it was made much more complicated than intended. Jesus spoke parables, so uneducated people could understand. That site just made it 1000 time harder than what it should be, and also is based on alot of assumption. Like for instance, no where in the story is it said that Lazarus heard, or knew anything about what was going on, the conversation was between Abraham and the rich man. Lazarus never put his 2 cents in at all. Nor does it say Lazarus even saw him. Yet there 2 long paragraghs saying heaven would be terrible if we could see the punished, tormented. Why is it assumed this is so?Then it goes on about what we should derive regarding the rich mans 5 brothers, the dog that licked Lazarus's wounds, ect ect. Making the parable no longer a parable, but a complicated maze of a story. Making one search for clues, and understand the signifigence(sp?) of symblism. How does this make things more simple? Isnt that what the very Idea of a parable is? To say things so one can understand? Would it not have been better if Jesus just said what he wanted to say? NTM no where does it give a explanation as to why Jesus would make up a place that didnt exist, of firey torment. In what way would a non existant place benifit the truth of the story? Parable or not, why make up such a place? whats the motive? This story is no parable. In no way does it even resemble a parable.

JayD, I am not gonna attempt to dissuade you from what you need to believe to live your life as you ought. There are Biblical Passages that present a very serious problem to what you believe, I cited those in earlier posts. You would rather skirt those to hang on to the thought of eternal torment for those who do not believe as you, skirt those to believe that your faith has earned you something. I respect that.
But for me, I consider the character of God and the supreme sacrifice of Christ, and the many verses I already shared with gladness here...
I think, hmmm, what is it to come short of the glory of God? To miss the mark? And I am very certain that when Jesus came to take away the sin of the world, when God was reconciling the world to Himself through Christ, when Jesus died once FOR ALL, He did not fall short.
I think, Hmmm, why would anyone whimsically call God sovereign, for that is all that they can be is whimsical with such a word as that, if they believe it IS His will that none perish and yet his will will not be done, that man will have in many many lives a greater will?
And how do those same folk throw around doctrines and words like unlimited atonement, and grace, if they do again, shorten their meanings to suit their religious notions that detract from the awesome and matchless work of the Savior.
The whole point of Jesus coming was to satisfy the justice of God. That has been accomplished. In Christ.
Worship him, Jay. Without any shred of doubt in his purpose to reconcile all mankind to himself, without any shred of doubt that He did it victoriously.
Or continue to believe as you do, but know there are many who will not make the blood of Christ anemic with fundamental doctrines that even the history of the church bears out were not embraced in her first 500 years.
God bless you either way,
OD