I neither confirm or deny the existance of God(s), in other words I don't lie about it.

So to me the answer seems obvious. Even if God did or did not create us, and our minds, we obviously have the ability to reason or rationale. Whether that is divine or not is completely subjective. That predisposition is where moral and ethical points of view need to arrive from... and are obvious like "don't hurt other people because you wouldn't want to be hurt". Morals should not come from lies about God.

Where SHOULD they come from, then?

YOU are presuming a "moving point" of reference. But the problem with your moving point of reference is that it always suits YOU. And guess what? Everybody else would then have a moving point of reference too. And what's NOT good for you might just very well be VERY good for somebody else - therefore, you cannot say it's bad because, for the other person it was good!

What moving point? What are you talking about? There is no moving point.

It should come from reason (which could very well have a closer relationship to God than the bible) and experience.

Natural rights, laws that are fair and whose benefits outweigh the costs, just virtues in general. A sense of caring for fellow humans. It doesn't grow out of religion exclusively.

Sure there is! There absolutely is!

Hitler believed (I believe quite sincerely) that he was doing the right thing, did he not? Yes, he did.

But what he considered (and many Germans with him) the right thing for Germany was actually a very wrong thing for the Jews.

So... who's to say that what Hitler did was wrong? It certainly was right for him and Germany?

EVERY law favors somebody, and is unfavorable to somebody else.

I'm not sure whether it's Philosophy or Civics you're more in need of right now...

That is ridiculous.

There is no moving point. Few humans, religious or not, think it is right to kill someone just for who they are. They simply wouldn't want the same for themselves. It is called reason and it is where morals should be derived from, not personal theories about God.

You're wrong!

You're just not willing to admit that logical (or illogical, as it were) conclusion of your way of thinking. YOUR line of reasoning leads to nothing more or less than a "survival of the fittest".

YOU think it's okay to kill unborn babies, just for who they are. But that's not a point of view that's good for the babies, is it?

Let's say that I decided to kick the crap out of you and have sex with your girlfriend (something that I would not, by the way, ever do). It may be bad for you, but if it's good for me then the positive and negative cancel each other out and it's morally neutral. And if your girlfriend liked it, then it HAS TO BE okay.


See how fun that is?

Bullshit. Reason doesn't dictate that hurting people is ok or right.

I believe in personal freedoms in regards to what people do with their own bodies. It is a personal moral that they will need to decide for themselves.

However, harming another human invades the personal freedom of that person in not wanting to be hurt.

Pretty simple reasoning. Many of them showed up in the Christian commandments but Christianity is certainly not needed to sustain them.

That's only according to YOU. But, again, what YOU consider wrong, somebody else will consider right. Therefore, it becomes neutral.

The Muslims in Southern Sudan think they are doing the right thing, don't they?
Hitler believed he was doing the right thing, didn't he?
Bush believed he was doing the right thing when he invaded Iraq, didn't he?

Who are you to sit in moral judgment? You are YOU to say that one is right and the other is wrong?

You are making yourself out to be god - and you claim nobody can know whether god (or any number of gods) exists!


You need to take Philosophy 101, my friend. Or take it again - and don't go to class stoned this time...