This is one of the best responses to this all-too-familiar quote I've ever read. It's always pulled out when people want to make sure you understand that if you don't believe the way they (the oranges) do, you're apple, pear or peach bad fruit. LOL You addressed it perfectly.

Actually there are different kinds of fruit as you say Antit. Yet spoiled fruit is no good to eat, green fruit will give you a tummy ache and normally does not taste very well. I would like to think of it more like many eat green fruit and rotten fruit and then they don't like the fruit. I did not see anywhere here that anyone has said Jews are going to hell, then I have not read all the past posts on this forum. Actually many Jews believed the word of God before Christianity was and many still do even today. Jesus came for that which was lost. Even the good book tells us a third of the angels fell. The Word of God explains throughout about those who have followed satan.

Then there is the fact of ones God has already written His law into their hearts we do not always know who they are. So we can only watch to insure we are not eating green or rotten fruit. Those He personally calls out by His Spirit and all those things we do not see as flesh beings. I am sure God is capable of reaching those who have not heard the good news. He can handle it after all He is God.

Have you ever watched China Cry Antit? Great movie, you can see it on TBN online. A woman tells her story about escaping from communist Chineese controls.

your buddy jay said that anybody who does not believe in Jesus will go to hell.

to the best of my knowledge that is EVERYBODY except Christians.

do you disagree?

so, you can cut and paste scripture - great

so - is Jay wrong - or are all the Jews going to hell?

a simple answer will suffice - you don't have to cut and paste scripture

I've always thought of this "Be christian or go to hell" thing as more of a scare tactic that evolved into bigotry. No doubt its origins stemmed partially from intolerance for Jews, Pagans, and Muslims, but I don't think anybody can doubt its heavy usage in garnering support for the Roman Catholic Church. Fear is always a powerful motivator in politics, and religion & politics are, unfortunately, often intertwined. Why shouldn't religious leaders use fear?

Even today. numerous fire & brimstone preachers proclaim the glory of god and denounce the unbeliever, then urge their followers to repent out of fear and respect for god. It's a common practice, and I know that many televangelists have done this to get a fast buck from frightened christians willing to save themselves from damnation.

Pat Robertson is a good example. This "God told me about an upcoming terror attack" thing is bullshit. He's obviously trying to muster some support and rally what little friends he has left after his Ariel Sharon fiasco. He has no proof. If he had been stricken by stigmata or the virgin mary appeared on the hood of his SUV then he'd have ground to offer up claims. Now, it's unproven, which only leaves us to wonder what his goals are.

No doubt the majority of these people actually believe, but it's a practice that's ripe for abuse, and as thus, often made to profit individuals. Wasn't there something in the Bible about steering clear of false prophets?

JayD has made it pretty clear that he believes that heaven is only available to christians.

The fruit thing, with rotten or unripe fruit, isn't dependent on the tree. Every tree has a few fruits that aren't too good. Judge the tree's value on how many good fruit it makes, not on whether or not you like the fruit on that particular tree. Some of us like oranges, some don't. Some prefer pears or apples. Some don't like fruit at all, and that's fine because we can get along with an adjusted diet that can be just as healthy. I'm a banana man myself (don't ask why agnosticism is a banana), but I don't care if somebody likes oranges, unless they try to force one down my throat.

That was long, and idk if anyone got the extended metaphor, but it's kinda true. Be whatever you want so long as you respect what others are doing. If you don't, I have no reason to respect your beliefs.

Antithesis, you can hardly blame JayD for believing that. As a Christian, to believe that you must accept Jesus as lord and savior in order to go to heaven is just a precondition. It just doesn't fit to think of people of faith such as JayD to reach their conclusions based on reason or philosophical thought. Philosophers have a choice to believe what they will, but they argue those beliefs through reason. Any religion's beliefs are derivative solely from dogma. That is, they can't pick and choose. If one thing goes, then that means the whole game is over. There really is no such thing as a philosophical Christian; but there are such people as philosophical theists. A philosopher, however, may be a Christian and attempt to justify his or her belief in reason, but ultimately logical debate breaks down because religion's sole foundation is that of faith; which is quite literally full acceptance of that which does not have evidence, or reason.

You're just going to have to accept the dogma of all religions. That even the most 'fruitful' of us will not go to heaven simply because we do not accept Jesus, while the most 'fruitless' can go to heaven if they do. In other words, to put the situation in a light where this is highlighted in it's extremity, people like Hitler will go to heaven, while those he was oppressing (the Jews) will go to hell. Such is the paradox in such religions, especially when they trump a message of alleged peace and tolerance.

That was very well put - bravo

Like I said I have not personally seen Jay make this claim, then again I have not read each and every post on this forum. Nor do I intend too. I know what I believe and the word Romans 10:6-7 fit the portions of conversation that are a claim Jay has said. I do not speak for Jay so he would have to answer inquiries on any specifics if he cared to do so. You can like bananas and deny oranges. That after all is your God given right even. I would not try to force you to eat oranges. Personally I like the oranges best when they are not picked to green or even worst I don't care for oranges at all when they have rotted from infestations of parasites or mismanagement of the crops. Since actually I am in an area where fresh oranges are not readily available the stores have green ones. I set them in the light of the sunshine and they most generally ripen nicely. Hopefully you can see that as another portion added to your extended metaphor.