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Faith is a gift, dealt to all men.

And is faith the necessary human element in salvation?

OD

Yes and no. It is not faith that gives you salvation, but the sacrifice and grace of Jesus Christ that does. But unless one be born again, he will not enter the kingdom of God. That means that you accepted his free gift.

BTW when you cover the 2 question I asked, never mind the "lake of fire" part. Cause all we are arguing there is the translation. Doctors in the field translated the NIV. I dont know what qualifies the folks on your web-sites to accuratly translate the bible. (not saying that they are not, but then who's to say which ones are right?) But consentrate more on the part "Those not found written in the book of life" Who are they, who was God talking about?

So faith is the means to accept a free gift, and it is a gift given to all men, you say?

Then why do you turn it into a work and say you must, she must, he must...they must...when you also say HE, Jesus did?

Whose faith is greater, man's or God's? Whose faith saves, God's or mans?

OD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD ,

Problem. If it is not something man has a choice in, you now say, then how is it that you say man must choose to accept it?

Problem. If faith is not a work, then what is it, if not a work when you qualify it as something one must do?

Problem. You say God does not have faith but one cannot give something that they do not have to give. I give my children supper, because I went to the store and did the work of making it. It is mine to give. I have supper. God from his storehouse of divine character has faith, he made it and gives it. It is His.
So how is it that you would reconcile the knowledge that it is His and He gives it, and it is His will that all be saved, if he does not give it to all?

Doesn't Jesus have faith to pray even now as he intercedes for us?

OD

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Well JayD, what I believe is this:

I believe that Jesus is the Savior. Not any part of us is involved in what is given mankind by his work at the cross.

I believe that what we are not talking about fully is the bridge from time to eternity. You say one must believe to be saved. Yes. I say that there is a revelation given, and that we walk in it. Now while in the here and now, we receive that revelation by faith.

Faith is really the same thing as the revelation.

It is a gift.

We need to believe to be "saved" here and now. I know the pain of not believing,
But I also believe very firmly that Jesus effected all that is the Father's will. His plan was not to say only the willing, His will was stated clearly in that Jesus is the Savior of all men. That if he was lifted up(a reference to the cross), all men would be drawn to him, that God was reconciling the world, think of it JayD, the whole damned world! ..he was reconciling all of it to himself in Christ. Jesus did not have a partial triumph. He had a full victory and gets the full reward for what He did.

For us to walk in salvation now we do so by the humility of faith. But someday face to face.

And all will be saved when faith is overwhelmed by eternity's evidence.

I already explained to you that when time gives way to eternity and faith gives way to knowing, that we do all stand in God's presence. Totally immersed in him. We as believing are already there! We are even now, and this I see by faith, hid with Christ in God!

But all will come to be in God. So God is the hell for those who do not walk in revelation and have things that need be purged.

God is a consuming fire.

But God is love. And when death is swallowed up in victory, every thing that ever knew the breath of God's life lives! And lives in Him!

That is what I believe...

If you want to throw Bible verses at me to attempt to dismantle that, I would be very disappointed in you JayD. You have yet to tell me why All would not mean All.

I choose the parts of the Bible that set my heart a dancing with hope for everyone.

With faith in a God who is love. Though love is sometimes really hard to see if we look with only our limited eyes of time and space.

And it is only for me to make use of that in the Bible that I see that goes outside of, and bigger than time and space...to the Eternal God our Refuge. Lord of ALL!!! Those passages are the ones that bounce between the pages in a book and my heart and know a song as they move between the two.

The rest of the book is man's progressive revelation of God. If I can't see Christ in a verse, I say it aint divine.

And there may well be verses in time that I have not yet seen Him in that I will, but I can't say that I believe the whole book and anyone who does say that is a liar.

The Lord reigns.

OD

Is it possible to be going the wrong direction, and actually be driving AWAY FROM New York City?