How Long Do We Have? - Page 9

alias · 07-30-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I think you're downright boring people.
You have effectively proven that you are incapable of an honest and intellectual debate. You focus what you want to focus on, ignoring what you please. You change the subject wantonly and quickly when you can't address something.

Maybe you can have a big discussion with this "we" you seem to think you are a part of.
As for me, echoing the sentiments of people before me, you are just obviously not worth a discussion.

I see. In other words, you cannot fight the facts any more so you will attack me and Jefferson because we revealed the truth about the democrats opposition to school vouchers. We see. We see indeed. Don't you know who WE is? We is the same as your we and those who think like you. There are 2 sides.

foundit66 · 07-30-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

I see. In other words, you cannot fight the facts any more so you will attack me and Jefferson because we revealed the truth about the democrats opposition to school vouchers.

No. It's not that at all.
It's that I see no point in arguing with you specifically. A person who adds nothing to the conversation except unfounded opinions and biased prejudice.

Jefferson? I'm sure I'll be dialoguing with him in the future.
You? Possibly at times, but for the most part you aren't worth my time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

We see. We see indeed. Don't you know who WE is? We is the same as your we and those who think like you. There are 2 sides.

I was talking specifically about people who think PRECISELY like you and the extreme nature of your prejudice towards "liberals" and those who don't agree with you.
I can talk to others who disagree with no problem as long as a rational conversation is observed. You are obviously incapable of rational conversation, and as such I will not try to expecct it from you.

You may not proceed to misrepresent everything I just said, and argue with yourself.

alias · 07-30-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

No. It's not that at all.
It's that I see no point in arguing with you specifically. A person who adds nothing to the conversation except unfounded opinions and biased prejudice.

Jefferson? I'm sure I'll be dialoguing with him in the future.
You? Possibly at times, but for the most part you aren't worth my time.

I was talking specifically about people who think PRECISELY like you and the extreme nature of your prejudice towards "liberals" and those who don't agree with you.
I can talk to others who disagree with no problem as long as a rational conversation is observed. You are obviously incapable of rational conversation, and as such I will not try to expecct it from you.

You may not proceed to misrepresent everything I just said, and argue with yourself.

I think the last thread here about school vouchers was a very rational thread. What part did you find unrational on my part? Please be specific.

Jefferson · 07-31-2006, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I think you're downright boring people.
You have effectively proven that you are incapable of an honest and intellectual debate. You focus what you want to focus on, ignoring what you please. You change the subject wantonly and quickly when you can't address something.

Maybe you can have a big discussion with this "we" you seem to think you are a part of.
As for me, echoing the sentiments of people before me, you are just obviously not worth a discussion.

Thank you for admitting, publically, that you know NOTHING about the school voucher program, and that you lost the argument.

foundit66 · 07-31-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Thank you for admitting, publically, that you know NOTHING about the school voucher program, and that you lost the argument.

I said nothing of the sort, but it's not surprising that you have to lie in order to pretend you have a point.

Did you even bother to look at the link that Alias threw out there? It contradicts both of your positions, although neither of you have the honesty to admit it or the intelligence to recognize it...

"School vouchers, also known as scholarships, redirect the flow of education funding, channeling it directly to individual families rather than to school districts. This allows families to select the public or private schools of their choice and have all or part of the tuition paid. Scholarships are advocated on the grounds that parental choice and competition between public and private schools will improve education for all children. Vouchers can be funded and administered by the government, by private organizations, or by some combination of both."
http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/vouchers.htm

All the rest of the crap you two are spewing about "liberals" and "power" is ignorance fueled by prejudice. Just because liberals are more comfortable with education and knowledge than conservatives doesn't mean it's an issue of "power" for us.
If schools are a "power" base for us, then I guess being stupid is a power base for the conservatives, eh?

< end sarcasm >

Jefferson · 07-31-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I said nothing of the sort, but it's not surprising that you have to lie in order to pretend you have a point.

Did you even bother to look at the link that Alias threw out there? It contradicts both of your positions, although neither of you have the honesty to admit it or the intelligence to recognize it...

"School vouchers, also known as scholarships, redirect the flow of education funding, channeling it directly to individual families rather than to school districts. This allows families to select the public or private schools of their choice and have all or part of the tuition paid. Scholarships are advocated on the grounds that parental choice and competition between public and private schools will improve education for all children. Vouchers can be funded and administered by the government, by private organizations, or by some combination of both."
http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/vouchers.htm

All the rest of the crap you two are spewing about "liberals" and "power" is ignorance fueled by prejudice. Just because liberals are more comfortable with education and knowledge than conservatives doesn't mean it's an issue of "power" for us.
If schools are a "power" base for us, then I guess being stupid is a power base for the conservatives, eh?

< end sarcasm >

You're wrong, and mis-informed. Again.

Scholarships and school vouchers are NOT the same thing.

Here's the deal, in very simple language that you might be able to understand:
1. EVERY public school gets public money, from the government, for education. This government money is calculated PER STUDENT AT THE SCHOOL. This is in addition to whatever property tax based income the public schools receive.
2. Voucher proponents want that per-pupil state money to go WHATEVER SCHOOL THE STUDENTS ATTEND - whether they be public, private, parochial, charter or magnet schools. Period.
3. This allows parents more freedom to choose better schools for their children. This is especially helpful to poorer families WHO CANNOT PRESENTLY AFFORD PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION.

Do you understand this? Please nod your head to indicate that you understand this very, very simple concept...

foundit66 · 07-31-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

You're wrong, and mis-informed. Again.
Scholarships and school vouchers are NOT the same thing.

I know they are not the same thing.
The sentence I quoted made it abundantly clear that they were talking about SCHOOL VOUCHERS. They were acknowledging that sometimes THEY ARE KNOWN AS "scholarships".
But the topic of discussion WAS School Vouchers and NOT the "scholarships" that we typically here of...

"School vouchers, also known as scholarships, redirect the flow of education funding, channeling it directly to individual families rather than to school districts. This allows families to select the public or private schools of their choice and have all or part of the tuition paid. Scholarships are advocated on the grounds that parental choice and competition between public and private schools will improve education for all children. Vouchers can be funded and administered by the government, by private organizations, or by some combination of both."
http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/vouchers.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Here's the deal, in very simple language that you might be able to understand:
1. EVERY public school gets public money, from the government, for education. This government money is calculated PER STUDENT AT THE SCHOOL. This is in addition to whatever property tax based income the public schools receive.

This is a silly attempt to get around the obvious.
If people typically HAVE TO PAY for something, and then you do something so they DO NOT have to pay for it, it is OBVIOUSLY a benefit towards the person. It is the PERSON who is getting a benefit in all of this, if you can count it as that...

I don't argue with your description here. It's your attempt to claim the inaccurate from the description that I disagree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

2. Voucher proponents want that per-pupil state money to go WHATEVER SCHOOL THE STUDENTS ATTEND - whether they be public, private, parochial, charter or magnet schools. Period.

No argument on the description again.
It's the fact that the PARENTS are receiving something for free that they would normally have to pay for that is the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

3. This allows parents more freedom to choose better schools for their children. This is especially helpful to poorer families WHO CANNOT PRESENTLY AFFORD PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION.

The real solution is simple.
Fix the schools we have.

The implications of the "voucher" system for the private school are numerous and potentially detrimental for the wishes of the private schools.
If the private schools get public money for an education, then the private schools are opening themselves up to the LEGAL REQUIREMENTS of the public school system.
In other words, a religious private schools would not be able discriminate against students based on religion or sexual orientation if the law states that the schools cannot do that.

Jefferson · 07-31-2006, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I know they are not the same thing.
The sentence I quoted made it abundantly clear that they were talking about SCHOOL VOUCHERS. They were acknowledging that sometimes THEY ARE KNOWN AS "scholarships".
But the topic of discussion WAS School Vouchers and NOT the "scholarships" that we typically here of...

"School vouchers, also known as scholarships, redirect the flow of education funding, channeling it directly to individual families rather than to school districts. This allows families to select the public or private schools of their choice and have all or part of the tuition paid. Scholarships are advocated on the grounds that parental choice and competition between public and private schools will improve education for all children. Vouchers can be funded and administered by the government, by private organizations, or by some combination of both."
http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/vouchers.htm

This is a silly attempt to get around the obvious.
If people typically HAVE TO PAY for something, and then you do something so they DO NOT have to pay for it, it is OBVIOUSLY a benefit towards the person. It is the PERSON who is getting a benefit in all of this, if you can count it as that...

I don't argue with your description here. It's your attempt to claim the inaccurate from the description that I disagree with.

No argument on the description again.
It's the fact that the PARENTS are receiving something for free that they would normally have to pay for that is the issue.

The real solution is simple.
Fix the schools we have.

The implications of the "voucher" system for the private school are numerous and potentially detrimental for the wishes of the private schools.
If the private schools get public money for an education, then the private schools are opening themselves up to the LEGAL REQUIREMENTS of the public school system.
In other words, a religious private schools would not be able discriminate against students based on religion or sexual orientation if the law states that the schools cannot do that.

Okay, I see where the misunderstanding is. You seem to think that a voucher is the same as "cash in hand" - or that parents can trade in vouchers for cash. No, that is not the case. Period. A VOUCHER IS NOT THE SAME AS CASH.

There are very simple, very clear advantages of the voucher system.
1. Parents can choose where their kids go to school. They can even choose to send them to a private school, without the overwhelming tuition cost. THIS IS ESPECIALLY HELPFUL TO LOW-INCOME FAMILIES (I simply CANNOT believe that you can't get this through your head).
2. It removes the public school system's monopoly on education. WHY ARE YOU SO ANTI-MONOPOLY WHEN IT COMES TO BUSINESS, AND SO "PRO-MONOPLY" WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION?

To take the "I'm opposed to school vouchers" stance is to say "I'm opposed to bettering our education system."

Way to go.

foundit66 · 07-31-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Okay, I see where the misunderstanding is. You seem to think that a voucher is the same as "cash in hand" - or that parents can trade in vouchers for cash. No, that is not the case. Period. A VOUCHER IS NOT THE SAME AS CASH.

No. That is not my belief at all.
In a lot of ways, they are like food stamps which the people trade in for private education.
It's not the same as cash, but I don't know of anybody who would look at food stamps and pretend that the benefit is actually for the grocer instead of the food stamp recipient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

There are very simple, very clear advantages of the voucher system.
1. Parents can choose where their kids go to school. They can even choose to send them to a private school, without the overwhelming tuition cost.

Parents can currently choose where their kids go.
They just have to pay extra if they send them to a private school.
And that would be...
bump-da-dah-dahhhh...
A cost benefit to the parents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

THIS IS ESPECIALLY HELPFUL TO LOW-INCOME FAMILIES (I simply CANNOT believe that you can't get this through your head).

It's not an issue of "getting through my head".
It's an issue of relevance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

2. It removes the public school system's monopoly on education. WHY ARE YOU SO ANTI-MONOPOLY WHEN IT COMES TO BUSINESS, AND SO "PRO-MONOPLY" WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION?

There is no monopoly.
Anybody can obtain shareware versions of Linux operating system.
They have to pay for the blue screen of death.

That isn't a "monopoly". Free alternatives exist. Pay alternatives exist.
No "monopoly".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

To take the "I'm opposed to school vouchers" stance is to say "I'm opposed to bettering our education system."

Only if you want to turn this into the same kind of propaganda which has "pro-life" claiming that the pro-abortion-rights movement is for killing babies as the "pro-choice" claim that the anti-abortion-rights movement is for trying to restrict what a woman can do about her body.

I am for bettering our education system.
We should do that by BUILDING UP the existing education system instead of gutting the existing one and outsourcing.

foundit66 · 07-31-2006, 02:14 PM

Jefferson, you gave no reply to this. Are you prepared for these consequences?

The implications of the "voucher" system for the private school are numerous and potentially detrimental for the wishes of the private schools.
If the private schools get public money for an education, then the private schools are opening themselves up to the LEGAL REQUIREMENTS of the public school system.
In other words, a religious private schools would not be able discriminate against students based on religion or sexual orientation if the law states that the schools cannot do that.

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