Defending the Truth

I don't think that anyone can argue the fact that generations carry the pain of previous generations; after all who is teaching the children?

Such an apology carries symbolic meaning if no actual force. In the same way that, in a situation between two people, one saying "You are right, I'm sorry" makes the other feel better even if no other action is taken. Sometimes the symbolic act helps to create a sense of closure.

If slavery had ended and everyone had been considered equal from that point on, this would be much less of an issue. We have people LIVING that have spent a good chunk of their lives being treated as LESS than the dominant class. Changing laws does not change attitudes, nor does it change the anger or resentment of past hurts.

Personally, I don't see that the apology is that big of a deal, but it may well offer a sense of validation to many. It can do no harm, but can potentially help. It should go forward.

I am all for people who owned slaves to apologize to the people who were slaves.

Demanding people who never owned slaves to apologize to people who were never slaves doesn't help anything. I see it as doing harm because it gives in to the delusion of some that the slavery of the past has somehow wronged them today.

People who fixate on the past aren't able to move on towards the future.

Quite frankly, (and I know this sounds raw), if it would get them to shut the hell up once and for all I would be all for the apology. Once given, nobody can play the "race card" when there is no racism. Nobody can blame their plight on past injustices, and will now be forced to move forward based on their own circumstances and make the best of what they have.

If I can then say "We already gave at the office", I would give the apology myself.

But this "apology" isn't an issue of "closure". It allows some people to feel justified in their continued fixation on events of the past.

If one friend apologizes to another, they move forward with their lives. They don't dwell on past problems.
But I have no confidence that this apology would accomplish that, nor do I see it as warranted.

I quite frankly see it as doing more harm than good...

I understand your perspective, and there is some merit in it. I have to remind you, however, that the events of the past are still influencing the events of today.

No one is asking a particular person to apologize to another. The State apologizes and it allows some to but that in the past. What is the harm in it? Will it create a utopia where everyone likes everyone? NO. Will it help social progress? I think that it will.

People that fixate on the past don't move forward, but people that IGNORE the past spawn all sorts of coping behaviors that don't really benefit anyone.

How much a person lets those events of the past influence who they are today, and what they can accomplish today, can be entirely up to the person...

Today, you would be hard pressed to find anybody who thinks slavery is good. If somebody were to say a derogatory comment towards blacks, an apology is almost unilaterally expected.
If the events of the past were still echoing in today, I think it would be a much bigger issue. And for those people who are stuck in the prejudice of the past, by all means let's discuss that issue and work towards understanding it.


And on that we disagree.
I see the very driving force requesting the apology as a self-inflicted condition. And catering to that does nobody any good.


Who is ignoring the past?
That's a common thing I've heard for the "pro-apology" side.

We aren't ignoring the past.
I acknowledge slavery existed. I acknowledge it was wrong. If I had any culpability or responsibility for it, I WOULD apologize.

We just aren't CLAIMING RESPONSIBILITY for actions we never took part in.

Part of an apology is saying that you are sorry for something you did.
Sometimes, people apologize for actions OTHER PEOPLE did, but that's more of a "I'm sorry you went through that" situation.

Here, it's even worse because an apology is expected from people who didn't commit the action to people who never were the recipient of the action.

Could you imagine if my great-grandfather raped my great-grandmother, and then my sister demanded an apology from me for that action?

Quite frankly, people like Bill Cosby have a point when they talk about some of the woes of the black community being self-inflicted. And allowing some to fixate on issues like this "apology" does nothing to help the REAL issues that need resolving.
REAL racism.

I disagree with you also in my belief that this apology will not help. I don't think anybody would move forward in their lives based on the existence of this apology.
I do believe that some people hold themselves back, and inaccurately blame the absence of this apology as a reason, but I don't think it will help.

Let me offer a more extreme scenario to illustrate the point:

Say that two men are working on an invention...

One comes up with a final product and the other kills the first, takes the prototype and patents it.

The one who stole the invention becomes rich and goes on to educate his children and grandchildren, while the children of the man that was killed become destitute and are unable to pay to educate their children.

Now...

Do the grandchildren of the thief have any LEGAL obligation to the other man's grandchildren? No.

Do the grandchildren of the thief have any MORAL obligation to the other man's grandchildren? I would have to say that they answer is YES on that one. They are benefitting from something that they were never entitled to in the first place.



That's basically how I view this whole apology issue. The fact is that it IS a hollow act to some degree but how is it a problem for the State to officially say "It was wrong to treat you ancestors in the manner they were treated and the State apologizes for its part."

Many things in this country were built by slaves, and the decendants of the slaves had to put up with mistreatment for many generations after abolition. The problem is not gone today.

Sometimes a symbolic act can become a useful starting point. I'm still trying to understand what it would hurt?

There's been a similar debate in the UK. My feelings are derived in my own familys past. My family were mill workers in Lancashire, working in atrocious conditions for a pittance. In short they were exploited by wealthy mill owners who were part of a larger system that eventually leads back to the aristocracy. The money made on the back of slavery in the sugar industry and in the textiles industry is still actually held by those families that perpetrated the deeds 200 years ago, although it is disguised via corporate developments and diversification. My family, though NOT slaves and though NOT suffering the terrible experiences visited upon those poor people were part of the same system.
I recognise the argument about racism, but I feel that that is symptomatic of other things rather than a basic perception, generated by the fact of slavery. In short, I don't think I have anything to aplogise for. I think I'm owed an apology from my previous feudal, medieaval and industrial exploiters, but I'm not going to hold my breath. In the meanwhile I'll plot their peaceful downfall.

The Jews killed Jesus? I thought his execution was undertaken by a regime ruled by Rome.

Nope, I think the Italians should apologise for killing Jesus

I dont think there is one civilzation in the modern world today that didnt have their ancestors own slaves. So why doesnt the world shush up and everyone appologize to everyone